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Hello everyone, I have been developing windows form application for my employer for about 3 years. Though most of my works are amateurish. I've been using visual studio, c#, enjoying creating re-usable windows form controls by sub-classing and other techniques. Now my boss want me to make website for this company, the first thinking in my mind is to create re-usable WEB controls just like windors form application.
The methods I have tried
Web User Control, At very first, I found visual studio support developer to create Web User Control, with file extension as *.ascx. I was very exciting to find this because I thought I can create Web controls just like I did in windows form application development. BUT, it's a very big "BUT", I then found that it cannot be embed to assembly file (DLL), and either can it be displayed in ToolBox to support drag and drop in web page design time. AFAIK from msdn, the Web User Control is not intended to be re-used across projects. So I give up this method.
Server Control, then I found there is Custom Server Control can be created to support assembly embed and ToolBox. It's a *.cs file that written with a class which sub-classing from System.Web.UI.WebControls.WebControl or System.Web.UI.WebControls.CompositeControl. Good point is that this is exactly what I want: re-usability and design-time support. HOWEVER, the huge disadvantage is that it doesn't support drag-drop when creating the web control itself. The control can only be rendered by html written in c# or be created by code. And I have to embed css/javascript to the control if I want to create more beautiful, complicated or efficient control. Anyway, from MSDN, Server Control is what I need.
Pure HTML, Javascript (jQuery), CSS, actually I've beening working with Server Control method for a while, just in order to make my boss happy. But I still cannot stop thinking about other better solutions. From my understanding, web page is not that complicated, it's simply constructed (please correct me if I'm wrong) by HTML tag, javascript (or other scripting language), CSS to manipulate UI. So I believe if I create web control by pure Html, Javascript and CSS, it will be of course more complicated but more compatible. Because Server Control solution requires the web server support .Net Framework, which is not free and limited to Microsoft scope. If I have a way to get rid of .Net, why NOT? I'm willing to spend double-time to create Re-Usable control if it's worthy to do. For example, if I want to turn to PHP to create web page, I might have to acquire the technique to create my web control simply by HTML, Javascript and CSS.
My question
Speaking all of the above, is it even possible to create my web control library only based on Html, Javascript and CSS?
If so, is there any tutorial about this method?
I really would like to know that how does commercial/professional company create web page.
Thank you everyone, any advice will be very much appreciated!
Speaking all of the above, is it even possible to create my web control library only based on Html, Javascript and CSS?
In strict speak, the controls you have become accustomed to support the aforementioned. This will continue work in future projects created in WebForms.
However, if you foray into MVC then there is a striking difference. Most of the controls that handle input are client side (which can be wrapped in js wigets and user validation classes). On the other hand there is very little server controls, however there are _MasterLayouts and Views that can make use of PartialViews a PartialView is similar to a Web User Control. In your Controller you can return EditTemplates and other types that would be similar to Server Controls
After digging for a few days, I almost give up creating my own javascript library not just only for web widget(UI), neither I would like to use third-part js frameworks because:
Cost too much time: as it says: 'do not reinvent the wheel', well, I accept/disagree with this point half by half. But now, I simply do not have too much time on it. It really really cost time, can hardly complish by an individual person.
A lot javascript frameworks are so great, like dojo, yui, jqui, as #dandavis commented, BUT, the usage of some is difficult, at least for me (as a js beginner), especially dojo. Dojo is very powerful, AFAIK, but it's hard to implement and use. I followed official tutorial to create my own web widget, spend a hour and not get it done. I might give up too fast?
I still want to dig asp.net with ajax, it is much powerful. And can easily manipulate on server side.
Well, I don't know if it's an answer but this is my personal end of my question. Thanks a lot guys.
I need some guidance from the experts.
Till now I have worked on Java and Java EE stuff along with Unix scripting etc. But everything was on the backend side. So I never actually touched the UI code much other than occasional cosmetic changes.
But now I have got one project where we need to work on the frontend part as well.
As I learnt from my colleagues, we need to know CSS, Html, Javascript, XSLT/XPath etc to make a good user friendly UI.
So could you kindly guide as to where to start. I feel that there are lot of things put together.
I tried to read up these things separately e.g. CSS thru W3C , Javascript thru W3C and I understood them but when it comes putting all of these together I am faltering. Require your suggestions to overcome this
I guess you are mostly interested in web applications development. In any case, it's good to know CSS (mainly CSS3) and HTML (preferably HTML 5) as well as a javascript library such as jQuery. Regarding the web frameworks to start with. Here are some choices. You may look around to see their pros and cons. So, here they are some of these:
JSF 2.0 is a brilliant framework following the Model View Controller pattern, that can be combined with an off the shelf javascript component library for JSF such as richfaces, primefaces, icefaces to give you a Rich Internet Application experience.
Groovy on Grails is also an excellent framework enabling you to write also in Groovy, starting usually from the domain layer and creating automatically a scaffold to work with - Similarly, Ruby on Rails offers the possibility to work with Ruby.
Spring MVC is also a great and popular framework to work with.
Django Python is a popular framework for writing in python, "Play!" framework to work with scala and many more.
So, choose the flavor you prefer and try delving into its details. Hope I have helped you.
If you are using Java EE, there's already a good UI framework available in that stack called JSF.
A good text to get started with it is JSF 2.0 tutorial with Eclipse and Glassfish
I'm now thinking to establish my server-side code in JavaScript, and begin to do all on it, but I want to know about its security and flexibility compared to PHP.
I want to know too, if it can be successfully used to develop things like forum boards, full web-sites and things like this, as PHP does.
Javascript is just now starting to get some presence on the server, with things like ServerJS and nodeJS, but right now, you would probably be best off using PHP for your server side code, and javascript for client-side beautification.
The question is very, very broad. Interpreting it as "can I use Javascript on the server":
Fundamentally, sure, Javascript is a very powerful language and so you can do development in it server-side just like you can client-side (and if you do client-side scripting as well, you get some definite reuse benefits using Javascript on the server).
For Apache systems, there's the v8cgi project (a FastCGI Javascript plug-in with connectors, using Google's freaky-fast V8 engine).
On Microsoft-based systems, IIS supports Javascript (JScript) on the server out of the box (I use that all the time), which has access to all of the ActiveX stuff (e.g., for talking to databases, dealing with the file system, etc.).
If your server framework is JVM-based, there's Rhino, which is Javascript for the Java platform and has access to all (or nearly all) of the libraries available for Java — e.g., a huge ecosystem of libraries and plug-ins.
Aside from v8cgi, there are a couple of other projects built on Google's V8 engine.
There's a place that does a full stack for you called chromeserver (I don't know what their backend is; I'm not going to infer from the name).
Paul mentioned ServerJS and NodeJS.
There's the whole CommonJS project.
Etc. etc. etc. There's quite a list on Wikipedia.
Arguing against, there's a very rich ecosystem built around PHP. Unless you're using something like Rhino for the Java platform or JScript on IIS (because of the ecosystems they leverage), you may find that you don't have nearly that ecosystem available to you when developing in Javascript for the server. I mean, if you're looking for pre-built forum or wiki software (for example), let's just say you can't swing a dead cat without finding one based on PHP, and the same cannot be said of Javascript on the server.
The way they are usually used, PHP and JavaScript run in entirely different worlds, and are not really comparable. (There is a server-side version of JavaScript but it's fair to say it's not especially widespread yet, and doesn't run on standard web hosting.)
The security issues you are going to encounter in JavaScript (on the browser) side are very different from what you have to look out for in PHP.
I want to know too, if it can be sucessfully used to develop things like forum boards, full web-sites and things like this, as PHP does.
No, not with client-side Javascript. For dynamic applications, you will always need some server-side language backing it, be it PHP or some other language like ASP, Python, Ruby, Perl....
To replace PHP with Javascript, you need server-side Javascript and there is a lot happening on that front. Mozilla’s Rhino runs Javascript atop the JVM and it seems Google is also working on its own server side Javascript framework. The most popular in-production implementations are:
Helma: Several active projects are using it, runs on Jetty & Rhino and lets developers leverage the power of JVM, has its own object-oriented MVC framework
Project Phobos: runs on Glassfish & Rhino and lets developers leverage the power of JVM, includes plug-ins for NetBeans and integrates with jMaki Web UI framework
JSSP: A very simple server side framework, a lot like classic ASP, JSP and PHP
Aptana’s Jaxer showed a lot of promise, especially by bringing the DOM to the server side, but the project seems dead now. From what I understand, node.js is not a server-side Javascript framework in the same sense as Helma and Phobos. Instead it can be used for writing event-driven servers in Javascript (for example: writing your own web server).
Yes, my site is written by node.js
Using websvr, it's Java style have filter and handlers, hosting on debian OS.
This is slightly off-topic, but it may actually get to the core of your question:
if you want to use only one language for web applications, you may wanna have a look at Haxe.
It is a cross-platform language, that (among other targets) compiles to JavaScript and PHP source as well as NekoVM bytecode. For server-side JavaScript, there are NodeJS bindings.
This way you are not bound to a specific platform. The neko and PHP APIs are largely compatible, so you can deploy on both platforms, having the option to choose neko's speed and persistency or PHP's ease of deployment. Please note however, the PHP output has a little overhead although common optimizers as eaccelerator will make this barely noticeable.
Haxe is significantly less forgiving than both JavaScript and PHP. This makes it harder to learn, but a much safer, robust and in the end more productive tool.
In a word: no. Javascript is a client-side language. In order to do the things that you are describing, you need a server-side language such as PHP.
EDIT: OK, technically it is possible to implement Javascript in other areas besides the browser, but this is not very common.
5 YEAR EDIT: Well, 5 years later, this answer obviously is not accurate, with the popularity of things like node.js. Let that be a testament to how quickly things can change!
PHP and JavaScript are two different languages that do two different things. One cannot replace the other. You are most likely going to use a combination of the two. JavaScript for client-side stuff. PHP for server-side stuff.
I come from the Microsoft world (and I come in peace). I want to rapidly prototype a web app and if it works out, take it live - and I don't want to use ASP.Net.
I am not sure which web application toolkit to use though. Should I use GWT, DOJO...other recommendations? I am open to any server-side language but am looking at RoR, Php or even Java (J2EE to be precise). I am not much of a Javascript/CSS guy so a toolkit that might make it relatively easy on me on those fronts would be preferable.
Also, I am a mac user at home. What IDEs go along with the framework you would recommend?
Any recommendations guys?
If you're open to doing Java, GWT is the way to go. It allows you to have a relatively uniform codebase across client-server, and to only use one language on both.
There are some limitations to doing very off-the-beaten-path AJAXy things (which GWT makes difficult, but not impossible), but it doesn't sound like that's your use case anyway.
GWT will allow you to scale up by using more of its features as your app gets more complex - and your prototype won't be throwaway code.
If you want to write the front and back end in JAVA, and want to do complex ajax type thing, then GWT is a great way to go.
The easiest way to think about it is that building a GWT app is kind of like building a JAVA swing application that hooks into a server. Just like a swing app that uses a server you can make it fat or thin. When you're done it all compiles down into HTML and javascript, and has very good modern browser support (ie6+ ff, opera, safari).
It does abstract all the javascript and HTML away, but if you want it to look good you'll still need to understand CSS.
I think anyone who says that that it ruins MVC or that it's a muddying of client vs server doesn't understand GWT. GWT is a CLIENT side framework. And it is only used on the CLIENT. GWT does provide an RPC mechanism to hook it into JAVA (and other) back ends, but that's just a communication protocol, it doesn't mean that your server code magically becomes your client code. Sure you can write a whole bunch of business rules into your UI if you really wanted to, but you can do this with any framework, so it would be silly to say that GWT is somehow different in that respect.
GWT is a good choice, while if you choose more powerful JavaScript framework based on GWT (e.g. SmartGWT), the compiled stuff is too heavyweight.
Choose direct JavaScript if you need a compact project.
I am a fan of GWT, however I am very familiar with Java. I found it to be intuitive, and surprisingly easy to get good results quickly. If you are to use GWT, then you'll definitely want to use the free, and immensely powerful Eclipse IDE.
One disadvantage of GWT is that it requires Javascript to be supported by the browser, there is no "graceful degradation".
We have evaluate a large list of frameworks and have decide us for Echo2.
You need only to code in Java. Javascript you need only if you want write your own components.
There are no startup performance problems with large projects like GWT.
You can use the full range of Java in your client code because it run on the server. In GWT you can use only very small set of Java classes.
The IDE for Java is Eclipse. This is independent of the used framework.
I'm a fan of jQuery, the chainability of actions, traversals, and commands is really powerful. A good friend of mine is crazy about Mootools, he works at a Java shop FWIW. He mentioned a cool feature of Mootools is that you can specify the functionality you want the framework to include and it will generate the entire library on a single line in a file that you can include on your page to minimize the weight of the framework (pretty cool feature). Really it just depends on what you are most comfortable with. jQuery has great tutorials, is super fast, and can be used along with other javascript frameworks.
Not related to GWT, but have you considered other backends that GWT could work nicely with?
Grails is one backend that ties quite nicely with GWT.
Personally, I would avoid server-side frameworks that try to embed or hide the client-side framework. I'm sure that GWT is great for getting something going quickly, and is probably fine for certain kinds of applications, but you'll probably run into lots of problems "on the edges" for more complex applications. Decoupling the client framework from the server-side framework avoids those problems.
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Does anyone see server-side JavaScript taking off? There are a couple of implementations out there, but it all seems to be a bit of a stretch (as in, "doing it BECAUSE WE CAN" type of attitude).
I'm curious to know if anyone actually writes JavaScript for the server-side and what their experiences with it have been to date.
Also, which implementation is generally seen as the most stable?
I like to read Googler Steve Yegge's blog, and recently I came across this article of his where he argues that Mozilla Rhino is a good solution for server-side JS. It's a somewhat sloppy transcript, you might prefer to watch the video of the talk. It also offers a little bit of insight on why he thinks server-side JS is a good idea in the first place (or rather, why he thinks that it's a good idea to use a dynamic language to script Java). I thought the points he makes were convincing, so you might want to check it out.
A while earlier, he also posted something about dynamic languages in general (he's a big fan of them), just in case you were wondering why to use JS at all.
Why would you want to process
something in Javascript when you can
process it in PHP or ASP.NET which are
designed specifically for this task?
Perhaps because JavaScript is a more powerful programming language than those two? For example, it has functions as first-class data types and support for closures.
Steve Yegge has blogged about porting Ruby on Rails to server-side JavaScript as an internal project within Google ("Rhino on Rails"). He did it because he likes Rails but using Ruby isn't allowed within Google.
Before it was acquired by Google, JotSpot used server-side JavaScript to let you query their database and display your pages. They used Rhino to do it. CouchDB uses server-side JavaScript to create views of their database.
As you can see from these examples, a great way to use JavaScript on the server is for plugins. One of the reasons it's used is that you can create a very isolated sandbox for people to run their code in. Also, because of the way that JavaScript as a language works, you can provide a user tooling specifically honed to the tasks your users need to complete. If you do this right, users don't need to learn a new language to complete their tasks, a quick glance at your API and examples is enough to get them on their way. Compare this to many of the other languages and you can see why using server-side JavaScript to provide a plugin architecture is so enticing.
A secondary popular solution, one which can be seen through a project like Jaxer, is that a common problem of web applications that do client-side validation is that, since JavaScript is easily bypassed in the browser, validation has to be run once again on the server. A system like Jaxer allows you to write some validation functionality that is reusable between both server and client.
Support for JS on the server has been getting stronger and the number of frameworks is getting bigger even faster.
Just recently the serversideJS group was founded. They have a lot of smart people that have been working on serverside JS for years (some of them more then 10).
The goal for this project is to create
a standard library that will
ultimately allow web developers to
choose among any number of web
frameworks and tools and run that code
on the platform that makes the most
sense for their application.
to the people who say "why would you choose JS over java or any other language?" - you should read this Re-Introduction by Crockford and forget about the DOM - the DOM is superugly, but that's not JS fault and JS is not the DOM.
I've never even heard of this, but it strikes me as using the wrong tool for the job. Since programming languages are just tools designed to help us solve some problem.
Why would you want to process something in Javascript when you can process it in PHP or ASP.NET which are designed specifically for this task?
Sure you can pound a nail in with a screw driver, but a hammer works much better because it was actually designed for it...
So no, I don't see it taking off.
Well, plain ol' ASP supported JavaScript server-side years ago and everyone onad their dog used VBShiate instead. But I have to agree with the others: JS does not seem to be the right tool here - and I love to do client-side JS :)
I personally did a whole site in server side JavaScript using ASP. I found it quite enjoyable because I was able to have some good code reuse. This included:
validation of parameters
object modeling
object transport
Coupled with a higher-level modeling tool and code gen, I had fun with that project.
I have no numbers on perf unfortunately, since it is used only on an intranet. However, I have to assume performance is on par with VBScript backed ASP sites.
It seems like most of you are put off by this idea because of how unpleasant the various client-side implementations of Javascript have been. I would check out existing solutions before passing judgment, though, because remember that no particular SS/JS solution is tied to the JS implementations currently being used in browsers. Javascript is based on ECMAScript, remember, a spec that is currently in a fairly mature state. I suspect that a SS/JS solution that supports more recent ECMA specs would be no more cumbersome than using other scripting languages for the task. Remember, Ruby wasn't written to be a "web language" originally, either.
Does anyone see Server-side Javascript
taking off?
Try looking at http://www.appjet.com a startup doing hosted JavaScript applications to get a feel for what you can do. I especially like the learning process which gently nudges the user to build things with a minimal overhead ~ http://appjet.com/learn-to-program/lessons/intro
Now it might seem a weird idea at the moment to use JavaScript but think back when PC's started coming out. Every nerd I knew of was typing away at their new Trash-80's, Commodore64's, Apple ]['s typing in games or simple apps in BASIC.
Where is todays basic for the younger hacker?
It is just possible that JavaScript could do for Web based server side apps as BASIC did for the PC.
XChat can run Javascript plugins.
I've some accounting software completely written in Javascript.
There's this interesting IO library for V8: http://tinyclouds.org/node/
CouchDB is a document database with 'queries' written in Javascript (TraceMonkey).
Considering this, i believe, server-side Javascript did take off.
Server-side programming has been around for a lot longer than client side, and has lots of good solutions already.
JavaScript has survived and become popular purely because developers have very little choice in the matter - it's the only language that can interact with a DOM. Its only competition on the client side is from things like Flash and Silverlight which have a very different model.
This is also why JavaScript has received so much effort to smart it up and add modern features. If it were possible for the whole browser market to drop JavaScript and replace it with something designed properly for the task, I'm sure they would. As it stands Javascript has strange prototype-based objects, a few neat functional programming features, limited and quirky collections and very few libraries.
For small scripts it's fine, but it's a horrible language for writing large complicated systems. That things like Firefox and Gmail are (partly) written in it is a heroic accomplishment on their part, not a sign that the language is ready for real application development.
Flash Media Server is scripted by using Server Side Action Script, which is really just javascript (ECMAScript). So, I do it a lot. In fact, most of my day was dealing with SSAS.
And I hate it. Though to be fair, a bunch of that is more related to the (not so great) codebase I inherited than the actual language.
I think server-side Javascript is guarenteed to take off. Its only a matter of time.
Mozilla, Google, and Adobe have so much vested interest for Javascript that it would take a miracle to dislodge it from the browser world. The next logical step is to move this into the server-side.
This is a step towards moving away from the hodge podge of Internet technology that usually includes all of these
HTML
CSS
Javascript
Serverside Language J2EE/ASP/Ruby/Python/PHP
SQL
I haven't heard much about the current state of Javascript Server frameworks, except that they are mostly incomplete.
I see server-side js will offer considerable advantages in future applications. Why? Web apps that can go offline, client-side db store, google gears, etc...
Following this trend, more and more logic are moving into the client-side. Use an ORM that works for client-side, and use another on server-side (be it PHP / Ruby / whatever), write your synchronization logic twice in two different languages, write your business logic twice in two different languages?
How about use js on the client AND the server side and write the code once?
Convincing?
Personaly i've been developing and using my own JavaScript framework for about 4 years
now.
The good thing about JS on serverside is that implemented in ASP Classic you don't need
any other plugin or software installed, besides i'm also using my javascript (client)
framework on my server, that allows me to enjoy of the same functionality and proven
performance of my functions at both environments client and serverside.
Not only for data validation, but also lets say HTML or CSS dynamic constructions
can be done client or serverside, at least with my framework.
So far it works fast, i have nothing to complain or regret except its great usability
and scalability that i have been enjoying during this past 4 years, until the point
that i'm changing my ASP Classic code to javascript code.
You can see it in pratice at http://www.laferia.com.do
Node.js has taken off and proven that server-side JavaScript is here to stay =)
I can't see most developers getting over their distaste for client-side JavaScript programming. I'd rather go to Java for server-side stuff before choosing JavaScript.